Also, can we stop pretending all Protestants have memorized scripture to the same level? There will always be examples of Protestants and Catholics that do not accurately represent the -ism itself.
I haven’t read this yet, but my gut response to headlines like this is: Are Protestants Christian? It matters more than you think.
Christianity is not about traditions, rote prayers, candles on Christmas Eve, hymns, choruses, or any other thing that we humans do.
Christianity is Jesus: fully God, fully human putting on our frail flesh to make a path for each of us to enjoy a restored relationship with the Holy One. His life (perfect), death (in our place), and his resurrection (the fulfillment of the Law) is the way and truth and reconciliation with God.
You cannot work your way to heaven, nor can the saints work out your salvation. You cannot outgive God, you cannot outlove God, and you cannot outwit, out play, or outlast the love of God in Jesus.
“In Christ there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave and free; but Christ is all and is in all” (Colossians 3:11). There is not Catholic and Protestant, either: there are those who follow Jesus and those who refuse him.
As a Catholic, I'd largely say that I agree, and that Catholic doctrine actually would, too. Lot's that we could unpack, of course. But for the purposes of this comment, I'll leave it at that.
exactly. There are Christians who are Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant. There are people who attend the same places of worship who do not worship Jesus.
Hi Lyle. That is the question, isn’t it? If salvation is grace alone, then what does James mean when he says that “faith without works is dead?” (James 2). I contend that works do matter, not for salvation, but for sanctification. Jesus calls his followers to imitate him (John 13), but we don’t take off the old nature right away. In fact, we battle with our old selves until we pass over into glory (Romans 7). Our good works do two things: they keep us focused on Jesus as we learn to be more like him day by day, and they demonstrate to others the truth of our convictions to believe in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16).
I love your respectful and loving discourse. After being told recently online that Catholics (like me) are leading people to hell, it is refreshing that we can speak as mallards and remain united in the body of Christ.
Live your life such that non-believers
Witness and
Question their non-belief.
I appreciated your closing comment to Gavin with the compliment that he’s already a great candidate to be a Catholic. That reconciliation of his criticisms made me smile.
Thanks a lot! I've seen a bit of Gavin's content. He's learned and clearly intelligent but I can't really agree with his theological stances much at all.
I can say that he's one of the more respectful Christians debating online, not just looking for clicks or to "burn" someone. His content is done in good faith and it's clear that he desires unity among Christians. I can appreciate that a lot.
This article raises important points but also perpetuates misconceptions that deserve thoughtful engagement. While the intention to foster dialogue between Catholics and Protestants is commendable, the analysis presented is rooted more in anecdotal observations than in substantive evidence.
1. “Catholics Don’t Know Their Bible”
The claim that Catholics lack Scriptural knowledge is a sweeping generalization. It is true that some Catholics may not engage in personal Bible study with the same intensity as many Protestants. However, this critique fails to account for the Catholic approach to Scripture, which integrates the Bible into every Mass through the Liturgy of the Word. Over a three-year cycle, Catholics hear the vast majority of the Bible proclaimed during Mass. Additionally, Catholic theology emphasizes Scripture in the context of Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium, offering a holistic approach to God’s revelation.
While personal Bible literacy is an area where growth is needed among some Catholics, it is inaccurate to claim this as a universal deficiency. For example, in regions such as Africa and Asia, Catholicism is thriving, with robust catechesis and Scriptural engagement forming the backbone of faith communities. These flourishing examples contradict the narrative that modern Catholicism lacks depth or knowledge.
2. Post-Vatican II Reforms and the Church’s Identity
The assertion that Vatican II reforms diluted Catholicism's essence is another point worth challenging. Vatican II was not a departure from tradition but a deepening of it, aimed at engaging the modern world without compromising the Church's doctrinal integrity. The Council’s call for active participation in the liturgy, its emphasis on the universal call to holiness, and its outreach to ecumenism are profound expressions of Catholic tradition.
Critics often romanticize pre-Vatican II Catholicism as a "golden age," overlooking the challenges of that period, including a lack of access to Scripture for laypeople and minimal engagement with the liturgy. While some post-Vatican II implementations may have led to abuses or a lack of reverence in certain communities, these issues are not inherent to the Council itself but reflect human failings in adapting to its vision. As St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have shown, Vatican II is a treasure to be embraced and understood in continuity with the Church's rich tradition.
3. The Dichotomy Between Cultural and Practicing Catholics
The article distinguishes between “ticket-punching” cultural Catholics and devout Traditional Latin Mass attendees, implying that the latter are the true standard-bearers of Catholicism. While it is true that reverence and devotion are essential to authentic faith, such a binary oversimplifies the Catholic experience. Faith is a journey, and the Church encompasses sinners and saints alike. Pope Francis reminds us that the Church is a "field hospital for sinners," not an exclusive club for the spiritually elite.
Instead of lamenting perceived differences between Catholics, we should focus on evangelization, catechesis, and fostering a culture of discipleship. The Church's vitality lies not in liturgical preferences but in the transformative power of Christ at work in the lives of all believers.
4. Protestant Observations of Catholicism
The anecdotes shared about Catholics lacking understanding of their faith highlight a need for better catechesis, not a deficiency in Catholic doctrine itself. To say, as the article does, that Catholicism is often misrepresented by its own adherents, is a valid critique—but one that applies to any faith tradition. Protestantism, too, has its share of nominal believers who do not fully understand or practice their faith.
However, these anecdotes should not obscure the reality that Catholicism is thriving in many parts of the world. In Africa, Asia, and Latin America, Catholic communities are vibrant, evangelizing, and deeply rooted in Scripture and Tradition. The global picture of Catholicism challenges the narrow view presented in the article.
5. Catholicism’s Sophistication and Historical Beauty
The article concludes by affirming the elegance and depth of Catholicism, a welcome acknowledgment. However, this recognition should not be conditional or overshadowed by critiques that lack nuance. Catholicism’s richness lies not only in its intellectual and historical contributions but in its ability to meet people where they are—calling them to deeper faith, hope, and love.
Conclusion
Dialogue between Catholics and Protestants is vital, but it must be rooted in truth and mutual understanding. Sweeping generalizations, romanticized nostalgia for pre-Vatican II Catholicism, and anecdotal critiques do little to advance this dialogue. Instead, let us focus on the shared mission of proclaiming Christ and the transformative power of His Church. As St. Augustine said, “In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”
Gavin Ortlund’s acknowledgment that Catholics are Christians is a step in the right direction, but true ecumenism demands more than polite affirmations. It requires an honest reckoning with facts, a commitment to mutual respect, and a shared dedication to the truth of the Gospel.
Some Catholics don’t know what’s in the Bible just like some Protestants don’t know what’s in the Bible. Unless you go to church regularly AND ENGAGE, you can warm a pew for years and not know what’s going on. That’s not Catholic-specific.
Yeah, I think your latter point is my own. But primarily, I don't appreciate the Catholic faith as a whole being dragged down because of lukewarm parishioners (that aren't proper representatives of the whole). It's a bit of a straw man against The Church, and often used as "evidence" against its legitimacy—which doesn't often happen the other way around.
To your point, this isn't relegated to Catholics alone. You're correct. But it wasn't spotlighted for the purposes of this particular reflection.
I haven’t read this yet, but my gut response to headlines like this is: Are Protestants Christian? It matters more than you think.
Christianity is not about traditions, rote prayers, candles on Christmas Eve, hymns, choruses, or any other thing that we humans do.
Christianity is Jesus: fully God, fully human putting on our frail flesh to make a path for each of us to enjoy a restored relationship with the Holy One. His life (perfect), death (in our place), and his resurrection (the fulfillment of the Law) is the way and truth and reconciliation with God.
You cannot work your way to heaven, nor can the saints work out your salvation. You cannot outgive God, you cannot outlove God, and you cannot outwit, out play, or outlast the love of God in Jesus.
“In Christ there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave and free; but Christ is all and is in all” (Colossians 3:11). There is not Catholic and Protestant, either: there are those who follow Jesus and those who refuse him.
Sorry, I think I deleted the comment because I wasn't following (I'm a little brain zapped from my long Friday!). Didn't want to confuse myself further.
Tracking, thanks for clarifying. I think there's plenty of historical evidence of God instituting authorities to serve as leaders for His people, but to your point, we're all subservient to Christ. He's the ultimate authority (above all man or institution), no doubt.
Not sure who at Substack you ticked off, haha. I've never had that issue so far (fingers crossed).
Also, can we stop pretending all Protestants have memorized scripture to the same level? There will always be examples of Protestants and Catholics that do not accurately represent the -ism itself.
Totally fair assessment. This was by no means a comprehensive post, but more so a short reflection.
I haven’t read this yet, but my gut response to headlines like this is: Are Protestants Christian? It matters more than you think.
Christianity is not about traditions, rote prayers, candles on Christmas Eve, hymns, choruses, or any other thing that we humans do.
Christianity is Jesus: fully God, fully human putting on our frail flesh to make a path for each of us to enjoy a restored relationship with the Holy One. His life (perfect), death (in our place), and his resurrection (the fulfillment of the Law) is the way and truth and reconciliation with God.
You cannot work your way to heaven, nor can the saints work out your salvation. You cannot outgive God, you cannot outlove God, and you cannot outwit, out play, or outlast the love of God in Jesus.
“In Christ there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave and free; but Christ is all and is in all” (Colossians 3:11). There is not Catholic and Protestant, either: there are those who follow Jesus and those who refuse him.
As a Catholic, I'd largely say that I agree, and that Catholic doctrine actually would, too. Lot's that we could unpack, of course. But for the purposes of this comment, I'll leave it at that.
exactly. There are Christians who are Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant. There are people who attend the same places of worship who do not worship Jesus.
As a “Protestant”, I agree with your assessment. Yet you’re first question, “are Protestants Christian?”confuses me.
The bigger issue not mentioned in this article (I did not watch the video) is: Is one saved by faith in Christ alone, or are works required?
How is one justified?
You say no works and I agree 100%.
Can anyone who adds works to faith alone be a Christian?
Hi Lyle. That is the question, isn’t it? If salvation is grace alone, then what does James mean when he says that “faith without works is dead?” (James 2). I contend that works do matter, not for salvation, but for sanctification. Jesus calls his followers to imitate him (John 13), but we don’t take off the old nature right away. In fact, we battle with our old selves until we pass over into glory (Romans 7). Our good works do two things: they keep us focused on Jesus as we learn to be more like him day by day, and they demonstrate to others the truth of our convictions to believe in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16).
I hope this helps :)
Literally heartwarming to hear!
Many don’t seem to get this and it discourages me when many are seeking to earn their salvation or maintain it by works.
Blessings to you and yours 🙏🏻
I love your respectful and loving discourse. After being told recently online that Catholics (like me) are leading people to hell, it is refreshing that we can speak as mallards and remain united in the body of Christ.
Live your life such that non-believers
Witness and
Question their non-belief.
I appreciated your closing comment to Gavin with the compliment that he’s already a great candidate to be a Catholic. That reconciliation of his criticisms made me smile.
Thanks for putting this out there.
Thanks a lot! I've seen a bit of Gavin's content. He's learned and clearly intelligent but I can't really agree with his theological stances much at all.
I can say that he's one of the more respectful Christians debating online, not just looking for clicks or to "burn" someone. His content is done in good faith and it's clear that he desires unity among Christians. I can appreciate that a lot.
This article raises important points but also perpetuates misconceptions that deserve thoughtful engagement. While the intention to foster dialogue between Catholics and Protestants is commendable, the analysis presented is rooted more in anecdotal observations than in substantive evidence.
1. “Catholics Don’t Know Their Bible”
The claim that Catholics lack Scriptural knowledge is a sweeping generalization. It is true that some Catholics may not engage in personal Bible study with the same intensity as many Protestants. However, this critique fails to account for the Catholic approach to Scripture, which integrates the Bible into every Mass through the Liturgy of the Word. Over a three-year cycle, Catholics hear the vast majority of the Bible proclaimed during Mass. Additionally, Catholic theology emphasizes Scripture in the context of Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium, offering a holistic approach to God’s revelation.
While personal Bible literacy is an area where growth is needed among some Catholics, it is inaccurate to claim this as a universal deficiency. For example, in regions such as Africa and Asia, Catholicism is thriving, with robust catechesis and Scriptural engagement forming the backbone of faith communities. These flourishing examples contradict the narrative that modern Catholicism lacks depth or knowledge.
2. Post-Vatican II Reforms and the Church’s Identity
The assertion that Vatican II reforms diluted Catholicism's essence is another point worth challenging. Vatican II was not a departure from tradition but a deepening of it, aimed at engaging the modern world without compromising the Church's doctrinal integrity. The Council’s call for active participation in the liturgy, its emphasis on the universal call to holiness, and its outreach to ecumenism are profound expressions of Catholic tradition.
Critics often romanticize pre-Vatican II Catholicism as a "golden age," overlooking the challenges of that period, including a lack of access to Scripture for laypeople and minimal engagement with the liturgy. While some post-Vatican II implementations may have led to abuses or a lack of reverence in certain communities, these issues are not inherent to the Council itself but reflect human failings in adapting to its vision. As St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have shown, Vatican II is a treasure to be embraced and understood in continuity with the Church's rich tradition.
3. The Dichotomy Between Cultural and Practicing Catholics
The article distinguishes between “ticket-punching” cultural Catholics and devout Traditional Latin Mass attendees, implying that the latter are the true standard-bearers of Catholicism. While it is true that reverence and devotion are essential to authentic faith, such a binary oversimplifies the Catholic experience. Faith is a journey, and the Church encompasses sinners and saints alike. Pope Francis reminds us that the Church is a "field hospital for sinners," not an exclusive club for the spiritually elite.
Instead of lamenting perceived differences between Catholics, we should focus on evangelization, catechesis, and fostering a culture of discipleship. The Church's vitality lies not in liturgical preferences but in the transformative power of Christ at work in the lives of all believers.
4. Protestant Observations of Catholicism
The anecdotes shared about Catholics lacking understanding of their faith highlight a need for better catechesis, not a deficiency in Catholic doctrine itself. To say, as the article does, that Catholicism is often misrepresented by its own adherents, is a valid critique—but one that applies to any faith tradition. Protestantism, too, has its share of nominal believers who do not fully understand or practice their faith.
However, these anecdotes should not obscure the reality that Catholicism is thriving in many parts of the world. In Africa, Asia, and Latin America, Catholic communities are vibrant, evangelizing, and deeply rooted in Scripture and Tradition. The global picture of Catholicism challenges the narrow view presented in the article.
5. Catholicism’s Sophistication and Historical Beauty
The article concludes by affirming the elegance and depth of Catholicism, a welcome acknowledgment. However, this recognition should not be conditional or overshadowed by critiques that lack nuance. Catholicism’s richness lies not only in its intellectual and historical contributions but in its ability to meet people where they are—calling them to deeper faith, hope, and love.
Conclusion
Dialogue between Catholics and Protestants is vital, but it must be rooted in truth and mutual understanding. Sweeping generalizations, romanticized nostalgia for pre-Vatican II Catholicism, and anecdotal critiques do little to advance this dialogue. Instead, let us focus on the shared mission of proclaiming Christ and the transformative power of His Church. As St. Augustine said, “In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”
Gavin Ortlund’s acknowledgment that Catholics are Christians is a step in the right direction, but true ecumenism demands more than polite affirmations. It requires an honest reckoning with facts, a commitment to mutual respect, and a shared dedication to the truth of the Gospel.
Some Catholics don’t know what’s in the Bible just like some Protestants don’t know what’s in the Bible. Unless you go to church regularly AND ENGAGE, you can warm a pew for years and not know what’s going on. That’s not Catholic-specific.
Yeah, I think your latter point is my own. But primarily, I don't appreciate the Catholic faith as a whole being dragged down because of lukewarm parishioners (that aren't proper representatives of the whole). It's a bit of a straw man against The Church, and often used as "evidence" against its legitimacy—which doesn't often happen the other way around.
To your point, this isn't relegated to Catholics alone. You're correct. But it wasn't spotlighted for the purposes of this particular reflection.
This is a good topic to discuss.
I haven’t read this yet, but my gut response to headlines like this is: Are Protestants Christian? It matters more than you think.
Christianity is not about traditions, rote prayers, candles on Christmas Eve, hymns, choruses, or any other thing that we humans do.
Christianity is Jesus: fully God, fully human putting on our frail flesh to make a path for each of us to enjoy a restored relationship with the Holy One. His life (perfect), death (in our place), and his resurrection (the fulfillment of the Law) is the way and truth and reconciliation with God.
You cannot work your way to heaven, nor can the saints work out your salvation. You cannot outgive God, you cannot outlove God, and you cannot outwit, out play, or outlast the love of God in Jesus.
“In Christ there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave and free; but Christ is all and is in all” (Colossians 3:11). There is not Catholic and Protestant, either: there are those who follow Jesus and those who refuse him.
Sorry, I think I deleted the comment because I wasn't following (I'm a little brain zapped from my long Friday!). Didn't want to confuse myself further.
Who is who in this scenario? (Relating to the post itself). Just for my understanding, I'm not sure I'm following.
Not sure who was ticked off, just was trying to make sure I was understanding you correctly.
Tracking, thanks for clarifying. I think there's plenty of historical evidence of God instituting authorities to serve as leaders for His people, but to your point, we're all subservient to Christ. He's the ultimate authority (above all man or institution), no doubt.
Not sure who at Substack you ticked off, haha. I've never had that issue so far (fingers crossed).